SAGalicious

Jun 3, 2005 quarter past eight am

With the Screen Actors Guild poised to go on strike, the gaming industry is about to pay the price for it's constant bragging that it's bigger than Hollywood.  In some ways, I can't help but sit back and laugh, if it were funny.  OK, I'm laughing anyway.  But I shouldn't be.

First, I think it's ridiculous that Voice Actors would be getting royalties from games when Artists, Programmers, and just about everyone else in the industry does not.  In my mind, here is the big problem if the industry gives in:  It's not the Publishers that will end up paying these royalties, it's the already underpaid and over-screwed Developers.

It is very common for the Developer of a game to get royalties, but most Developers are small companies, and unless the game is a mega-hit, most of the money goes back into running the development company and paying the salaries of the people working there.  This is one place that the game industry and Hollywood differ.  In Hollywood "points" usually go to people, in the games industry, they go to small development companies who have to make payroll and keep running in-between work.

And, the royalties paid to developers must be recouped from the cost of making the game.  This is not to say that the Developer won't make money until the game is profitable, it's far worse than that.  The Developer won't make royalties until they've paid back what they spent, but they are getting a much smaller cut than the Publisher is.  It is very common for the Publisher to break-even on a game, and the Developer is nowhere near recouping the advance on the royalties.

What does this have to do with paying Actors royalties?  That depends on who's cut the extra royalties come from.  If the Developers have to pay these royalties out of the development budget, then the Publisher gets away close to scott-free, while the Developer takes it in the...

If the industry gives into this, you can count on the Publisher trying to shift that money to someone else.

Of course, the larger question that everyone is bring up is:  Isn't this good because it might force Publishers to pay royalties to Artists and Programmers?  Yeah, that would be great, but where is that money going to come from?  The right place would be from the Publisher, but in the end, that will make games even more expensive and Publishers are already scared to spend money on anything that is not a god-guaranteed hit, so this will only serve to drive the industry more towards hit driven games.

It is also very unlikely that Artists and Programmers will suddenly start getting royalties because they have no power to negotiate them.  Artist and Programmers are not part of a Union, so a "strike" would largely be ignored by people not wanting to get fired.  Unionizing is an option, but that brings up a whole ?nother scary set of complications to the industry better left to another early-morning-I-haven't-had-my-mocha-yet rant.

It would be very interesting to see where the money that this industry makes actually goes.  It's not going to the "talent".  Is it going to the CEO's and VP's of the Publishers?  I doubt it is, anymore than any other big company does.  My guess is that the economics of this business are such that the revenues are high, but the profit is not (deal-making with the devil EA aside).

In the end, I think this is an issue of the Actors just fundamentally not understanding how this business works.  But, the games industry has always had this sick envy of Hollywood and has always proudly proclaimed how similar to Hollywood it was getting.  Careful what you wish for.  Mr Greed, Mr Ego, we're ready for your close-ups now.

Other people's comments:

Posted by OsoBubu on Jun 3, 2005 five to nine am

So, what happens to all games that are not translated when exported to non-english countries?

Do we must pay here (in Spain) a part of a videogame that will bring money to people putting voices that 90% of the country doesn't understand?

Posted by Quantum on Jun 28, 2005 quarter to nine am

Whatever happened to having text narrations in video games?

Since when is it NECESSARY for all the characters to talk throughout the game, and throughout the long, drawn-out, unplayable, shitty-story-evolving cutscenes?

I ahte to break it to whoever this is being broken to, but goddamn, any real gamer DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE CUTSCENES OR THE VOICE ACTING OR WHO THE MAIN CHARACTER ALMOST LOOKS LIKE.
The voice actors don't sell the game.  The graphics help.  But the gameplay really says it all.  What's the last time a shitty game with nice cutscenes and voice-acting was a huge hit?

How many cutscenes and how much voice acting is in World of Warcraft?


Ouch.

Posted by Edmundo on Jun 3, 2005 twenty five to ten am

In Spain, maybe. In Latin America, a lot of movies are subtitled, and people get used to reading subititles. Unfortunately, console video games have never ever been translated.

Anyway, I'm curious about non-guild actors, such as voice actors that may not be in the guild but still do cartoons and such. How are they handled? In fact, the video games industry is more like television. It's crap and the material is usually an attempt to imitate another show or cheesy dialog, but once in a while there's something good. Remind me not to get a cable subscription next time I move.

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 3, 2005 quarter to ten am

Anyway, I'm curious about non-guild actors, such as voice actors that may not be in the guild but still do cartoons and such. How are they handled?

In games (can't speak for TV or movies), you can use non-union actors all you want.  The only catch is that if you use a union actor, then all actors must be union (there are some exceptions to this).

The problem with non-union actors is they are harder to find, and if you (or the marketing department) wants a "name" for the box, then you're screwed.

Posted by Someone on Jun 3, 2005 twenty to eleven am

We localized all the VO in Spider-Man 2 for French, German, Spanish and Italian. Spider-Man 1 too, if my memory serves me. Shipped 13 SKUs at once I believe.

m.

Posted by ArC on Jun 3, 2005 ten am

If SAG cares so much, have them help us developers organize first, then let's talk royalties.

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 3, 2005 twenty past ten am

Careful what you ask for.  Not that I am for or against this, but along with unionizing come some massive structure to the relative freedom a lot of developers enjoy.

Gone will be the long work hours (for no pay), but you will be in at 9 and leave at 6 and you will get 45 minutes for lunch and that's it.  No DOOM, no chatting in co-workers offices.  If employers have to pay for every minute of overtime, you can bet they will want nothing but work while you're at the office.

This might be a good thing, but I know a lot of developers that will have a hard time adjusting.

Posted by Tobia Tesan on Jun 3, 2005 five to noon

Right, but I would never give away that "more human" working rhythm and that sort of "freedom" enjoyed by many developers - which makes being a developer more similiar to being some kind of artisan rather than a clerk or something like that, you know - in trade for a secretary-like job.

...Please forgive my english. I'm too tired to keep my eyes open and check what I've wrote.

Posted by ArC on Jun 3, 2005 quarter past eleven pm

As I get older, I think more and more that more structured work hours would be better anyways.

But that said, doesn't SAG itself (and all the other Hollywood unions) often find its actors working long, long hours?  I'm quite optimistic that unionizing won't mean a 9-6 straightjacket.

Posted by anarcho on Jun 10, 2005 quarter to seven am

Ron & ArC,

Having a union does not automatically lead to a "9-6 straightjacket".  There's no such thing as a standard "union contract".  Contracts are negotiated by the employer and employees (usually through a committee and with the help of a union representative).  The contract is then voted on by the union members.  A contract can include stuf like 9 to 5 rules and overtime language, or it can not.  Another thing to remember though, is that employee-manager relationships play a big role in how a contract is enforced.  For example, I'm a union member and I work in an office.  My contract says that we work from 9 to 5.  Our contract also contains some overtime language.  Most days I'm out of the office by 5.  Sometimes there is some extra work that needs to get done, and I may put in some more time.  My boss isn't obsessed with us all leaving by five because of overtime, mainly because we'll probably just leave early some day later in the week--and hes's all right with that.  My point is, a contract doesn't have to be a straight jacket.  But it's importance lies in it's ability to protect you from exploitation.  If my boss suddenly but me on a 80 hour a week scheduale, then I'd have recourse to stop his plans.

Posted by sloppy joe on Jun 6, 2005 quarter past eight am

It doesn't necesarily have to be this way, it all depends on the agreement. True it would seem likely that employers would like to see full efficiency in working hours, but considering the actual workflow (currently) they might be implied to agree to other working conditions more comfortable for developers.

Posted by Someone on Jun 3, 2005 ten to eleven am

Although I know EA doesn't have a formalized royalty structure, Activision does, all the way down to APs. From what I can tell the bulk of executive compension is through option sales. Just watch the SEC filings to see where the money goes, most of it is out there in the open.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/sec?s=TTWO

for example.

m.

Posted by steve on Jun 3, 2005 ten past eleven am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a big difference for Hollywood is that few people on a movie are salaried employees. Therefore, points and royalties make more sense to me.

Salaried employees should get performance-based bonuses, but will always get paid less than successful freelancers because of the risks involved with the latter. You want the regular check, you accept a lower salary and a different pricing structure.

If the game industry wants to be 100% contract-based, points and royalties will make more sense for programmers and artists. Unions will also make more sense.

Posted by Tobia Tesan on Jun 3, 2005 quarter to noon

You are absolutely right..

Posted by Hieronymus on Jun 3, 2005 twenty five to two pm

Yes, that is a good point - generally only if you do work by contract do you have a hope of getting royalties. And most programmers are "real" employees, while voice actors are contractors. It may be that, like Hollywood evolved from the studio system to the freelance system, game development does as well. In many ways, the grunts that work on a computer game (artists & programmers) have the worst of both worlds - no royalties, and long uncompensated work hours.  But as I too was sucked into that world, there's always another crazy around the block that wants to "work on games" and will take the place of the falling soldiers. But you won't see too many in my situation (wife, kids, soccer games, etc) that remain a grunt in that system.

Posted by scummbuddy on Jun 3, 2005 ten past two pm

Just a little note: Mike Myers will be receiving 19 million just to voice the next Shrek game. I can understand that, in a little bit. If his lines are nearly as many as what he would do for the movie, then it makes sense, plus the publishers can gloat that hes doing the voice and everyone should buy it.

Posted by Rhett on Jun 3, 2005 twenty five to eleven pm

Looks like Myers is receiving that fee for the next 2 games.

It's interesting though -- the following article points out that since people will pay $50 for a game vs. $10 for a movie ticket, that the actors should get paid more for game work than they do for a movie!  Indeed, quite a hilariously ignorant opinion.  (Nevermind that I'll eat a CD if a Shrek game sells a million units at a $50 price point).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1622610,00.html

Posted by jmackley on Jun 3, 2005 twenty five past eight pm

I now live in LA and I've been watching the business papers and reading the stories, and even talking with actors.

The fact is, they have no idea how the video game business works.  They think that they should be paid the same for similar work.  If you look at it from that point of view it makes sense.

But I'm afraid that they don't understand that no one buys a game for the quality of the acting.  This is quite different from TV shows where actors make quite a big difference in ratings and profits.

It's not arrogance, it's ignorance...and boy do they have it in spades.

There was an article in today's paper about a woman who screamed so much in her hour long recording session that she almost lost her voice.

Funny that she should want residuals for that when I know a whole team who worked 7 day weeks, 12 hour days for a year and got no compensation other than salary.

They are going to be in for a shock if they strike and no one cares.  To be honest, I'm surprised there are so many union actors working in video games now.

The game companies are going to shift to all non-union and SAG is going to make its members look like idiots.

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 3, 2005 quarter to ten pm

I think you're very right.  If the game industry just does a collective "so what" to this and starts using good non-union talent it will be for the best.

I have never understood the desire (other then pure ego) for game companies based in San Fransisco and Seattle to go all the way to LA to do voice work.  

The only issue will be for companies that have a) signed contracts with the unions agreeing to only use union talent (SAG was trying to get us at Humongous to sign one of these several years ago), or b) they have big name star and because they are union, most everyone else has to be.

I think SAG has this image that the strike will grind the industry to a halt, like does the TV biz.  My worry is that when it doesn't, the unions will become even more determined to infiltrate the game business so they can have that kind of power.

I also must say I am very disappointed in Wil Wheaton's quote in the article I linked to.  I have always found him to be very intelligent and insightful, but his remarks seemed very naive.  I would enjoy seeing him enter into a intelligent debate over this.

Posted by Rhett on Jun 3, 2005 twenty to eleven pm

Of course you know why people go to LA for voice work!

It's so we can falsely claim some form of legitimacy by associating a big-name actor with our game!  Look, Jim Carrey voiced that game!  Maybe that'll help me overlook the crude and unpolished gameplay and level design!  Yay!

Posted by Queequeg on Jun 4, 2005 twenty five past two am

The reason why many people use talent from LA is because that is where most of the talent lives.  There are several notable exceptions here in the SF Bay Area, however if you are a voice actor in the United States, the place to be is LA.  Thats were most of the work is.

I fear for the quality of game audio if the industry decides to go strictly non union for voice talent.  Most voice talent are part of the union because they seek protection from exploitation.  Its very difficult for voice talent to advance their careers without representation and union protection.  The good voice talent didn't get where they are today by taking buyout gigs.  They instead have agents who can canvas many markets, they have union protection that ensures that they get paid for all studio time, for every tag, version, etc. depending on the union contract requirements.  They have pay scales, some make double scale, or more.  If you were a serious voice actor, especially one at the start of your career, you would expect nothing less.  I'm not sure if voice talent deserve royalties on games because there's a long line of people who definitely deserve them and aren't getting any.  But I think that anyone doing voices for games deserves to be paid appropriate scale rates for their time, and a per sku usage fee.

I agree that SAG is asking for too much regarding royalties, but be kind to the union talent, because you need them, whether they live in LA or anywhere else.  Do you really want to be doing cattle calls to find a Shrek voice double that won't be able to duplicate Mike Meyer's adlib ability and will probably be unable to take direction, etc..
200 takes of mediocre mimicry from someone who's probably getting the shaft in their buyout agreement.  I'm not a voice actor, I just record them.

Posted by Hullabaloo on Jun 4, 2005 ten to eleven am

I have to disagree. If you live in any urban hub with a decent theater scene, like here in Seattle, you can usually find plenty of talented non-union actors. I've worked on games that have used all-union, and others with non-union. The quality difference was indistinguishable.

SAG is in for a rude awakening if they really think they're playing hardball. Voice talent, even the most famous, has never been a demonstrable factor in game sales.

It's interesting to note that once of the high points for voice talent in games, Conker's Bad Fur Day was almost entirely voiced by the game's lead designer and lead programmer, including the immortal "Mighty Poo" song.

Posted by Kyle on Jun 5, 2005 quarter to one am

As wannabe good non-union talent I couldn't agree more.

Posted by Queequeg on Jun 5, 2005 half past six pm

I don't dispute that there are good non-union talent.  I've worked with a local sketch comedy group here in SF for the past six years and I'm constantly blown away by their talent.  Some have gotten gigs on TV and radio spots, some in games.  But in most of their cases, they weren't sure if they were treated fairly and some in fact were not.  Some Unionized Voice talent chose that route because it makes their lives easier, or in some cases they just had to because of SAG's control.  At least they have a group standing behind them who is going to raise hell if someone trys to exploit them.  Of course, back in 2001 the SAG strike lasted six months and really hurt a lot of voice actors, so there is a negative side.  If you decide to go non-union, then you need to arm yourself with information.  Find an agent who can provide advice, find you work, help negotiate a deal.  If you go it alone, make sure you're getting treated fairly.  Seek out groups that share what the going rate for voice work is, find sample contracts.  Be prepared before you deal with a company that wouldn't hesitate to outsource its entire staff just to please the shareholders.

Frankly I don't care if the quality of non-union talent vs. union talent in a game was indistinguishable or if it had an impact on sales.  I'm more concerned with how each party in a project was treated.  Were they paid properly for their time and talent?  If a game was made and non-union talent was used and they were exploited in the process, then shame on everyone involved.  If they were paid the going rate for their work then that project should be used as a shining example of how things should be.  I'm not even just talking about voice talent, everyone involved deserves to be paid for their time and the value that they bring to the project.

I've noticed that the overall tone in the general thread is painting SAG as the enemy.  Finally, a large outside group is going to battle with the Publishers and the very employees who feel the lash every day are out there defending these Publishers.  I think that the industry can possibly benefit from a conflict with SAG.  Regardless of what we assume their intentions to be,  I hope that direct pressure from them will convince others in the industry to join in and demand similar treatment.  Use the momentum of their strike and publicity to destabilize the status quo in the gaming industry.

I hope that through forums like this, we can find a solution to the problem of exploitation in the game industry.  I think some progress has been made.  Some companies are trying to set a good example, and quality of life issues have become the main topic at industry events.  Maybe gamers and game websites should organize and boycott games from companies that treat their employees like dirt.  Vote with your dollars.  I know that sounds utopian, but I'm still optimistic.  Yet sadly there seems to be an endless supply of people around the world who will sell their souls to work on games.

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 5, 2005 five past seven pm

If a game was made and non-union talent was used and they were exploited in the process

What kind of exploitation are you talking about?  I've worked with a lot of voice talent (union and non-union) and I have never seen any exploitation (other then a few people bitching that they weren't going to to royalties).  

Finally, a large outside group is going to battle with the Publishers and the very employees who feel the lash every day are out there defending these Publishers

I guess people are upset by the SAG stuff because of all the people that are being abused in this business, SAG people should be the last to complain, plus it just comes across as Hollywood greed.  Come on.  $250/hour with a 4 hour minimum?  I'm not saying that's not fair and all, but that's far from being exploited.

I also think that most people in this business are a little more attune to the reality of the economics of it all.  It's not free flowing cash like in Hollywood, but I think the voice actors think it is and they aren't getting their cut.

If there are any SAG people reading this, I'd love to hear some your perspective.

Posted by Hullabaloo on Jun 6, 2005 noon

I don't think anybody is defending game publishers. Like Ron has said, it's more about SAG not really understanding much about how this industry works, and if some of us seem, well... grumpy, it's because this does highligh some pretty rampant exploitation in other parts of the business.

But the actors have the least to complain about. On every project I've worked on, they get union scale or better (sometimes double. Even non-union folks can have good agents). Union or not, you get what you pay for.

This brings up all sorts of interesting issues. I have never seen a game where the sound and voice budget is more than 10% of the entire project (and there's another dumb thing about the game industry). The entire budget for a top-notch AAA game is less than most low budget films. With the economics of the game industry already broken and beyond all logic, SAG couldn't have worse timing. They're chasing the illusion of a rapidly dwindling piece of non-existent pie.

Posted by Gank on Jun 6, 2005 half past three pm

Mmmm... Non-existent pie.

Posted by pumpy jack on Jun 3, 2005 twenty past eleven pm

The big-name actor thing makes sense for the hollywood cartoon world - after all, you can't have Master Chief or Gordon Freeman make the talk show circuit, hanging out with Regis and Kelly, or shooting the shit with Leno, but Mike Myers is a living breathing PR machine.

We have a bunch of hollywood-wannabe marketing/PR folks steering the ship.  I hear it all the time - we should go to LA to record, to get union talent.  Plus I hear we should pay for licensed music.  And of course there's a big push to bring in other outside influences (Atari using Marc Ecko for example.)

Who knows, maybe in some respects it would make sense to get a name and send them out on the circuit.  Maybe we will start seeing this.  Because while it's true that Mike Myer's voice doesn't necessarily add to the game experience any more than any other talented actor would, people want to see him and listen to what he says.  And after all, the end of the day it is about selling the product, to get the message out there.

Posted by drunkymonkey on Jun 4, 2005 three am

Everyone may bash Steam for being bug riddled and forced upon gamers, but with it, the money goes straight to the devs, and not to the publishers.

Posted by eobet on Jun 4, 2005 four am

I don't believe in Steam. It has never done anything but bother me (though I bought the game on DVD, so perhaps that's why).

If retail game prices go up, more and more people will probably buy indie games (hopefully, at least).

Except for WoW, the last couple of games I bought were indie (Live for Speed and BreakQuest), and they were just as good, if not better, than retail game offerings.

Other examples are Massive Assault and Laser Squadron Nemesis... though then I'm actually out of retail quality productions (except maybe Hamster Ball, but that game didn't seem to have enough content to warrant a purchase). Does anyone have any other examples? (And no, I unfortunately haven't bought any indie adventure games, though I know they're in abundance, but they don't seem to have demos so I can't try them out, and thus, no buy.)

Posted by eobet on Jun 4, 2005 five past four am

Ooops, forgot about Darwinia.

Posted by Ketchaval on Jun 4, 2005 twenty to ten am

Personally I think games are closer to Graphic Novels (ie. comic books) as this post of mine suggests:

It strikes me that games are closer to comic books (ie. graphic novels), than movies. That is if you consider the standard type of game which uses prescripted dialogue (either in cut-scenes) or in dialogue trees.

Look at this "Gamics" site

http://gamics.com/gamics/MAFIA/0001.php

It would be quite possible to make a branching version of something like this to illustrate (a screenplay for a game???) -- to illustrate the way a game such as Deus Ex goes.

==> Do you infiltrate the terrorist base via the ventilation shafts, go to page 50.
==> If you walk in the front door guns blazing go to page 72

....

But it isn't just that, but the way that games convey details which is often a mixture of visual clues and speech, whereas a novel can describe much more detail. And a film can concentrate the viewers attention wherever it wants, ie. it can choose to zoom in on the Pirate's beard as he dribbles chunks of meat on it. Whereas, a game usually gives the player freedom to choose where to look.

(Also you may note that I seem to have just described a new?? tool for conceptualising plot branches, you could even use HTML to link to the appropriate pages.).

Posted by jmackley on Jun 5, 2005 ten to nine am

I'm afraid you've hit on one of my pet peeves, branching narrative.  

Branching narrative is not an important part of interactive story-telling.  In fact (except in tiny doeses), branching narrative will destroy any project that attempts to employ it.

Linear authors gravitate to it because they understand it.  It is (in-fact) not non-linear at all, but multi-linear which is why traditional writers like it.

But from a game play perspective it isn't fun, it isn't rewarding and from a production perspective it is unfeasable.

To your credit, however, the Deus Ex example listed above is not an example of branching narrative, but a game-mechanic driven choice.

Remember that games are a super-set of linear media.  Those who believe the opposite (refusing to cede control to the player) are going to be in trouble.

Posted by drunkymonkey on Jun 4, 2005 twenty five to one pm

Darwinia and GTR are the latest games where they have been nothing but independant, such games do not come aound often, and we should cherish them.

Posted by Someone on Jun 4, 2005 twenty past three pm

=^_^= Ron Gilbert

Posted by Anakin on Jun 5, 2005 twenty past two am

I know,its not quite the topic,but this question totures me for years now:
Ron,would Guybrush have looked like on the cover of MI2 in your Monkey Island 3?
With the new graphics.he could have finally looked,like we ever imagined him and knew him from the hi res cutscenes of MI 1 and 2....
But no,they just made a foolish lookin banana-head out of him....

Pleas tell me: what would guybrush look like in your Monkey Island 3(plus)?

Posted by jmackley on Jun 5, 2005 twenty past nine am

I'm not going to speak for Ron, but as one of the Producers of Monkey 3,  I would like to say something about animation.  

I'm always a bit amazed at what people (even in the industry) don't know about animation.

This won't be a defense of the Monkey 3 art style (which, by the way I think was awesome), but an explanation of animation styles in general.

Here are the reasons that animated characters are iconified.

1. Animation is still not at the point where it can fool the human eye as to what is a real person or not.  When technology attempts to create a human face it comes across as creepy and unappealing.

Note that the most advanced animation studio on the planet, Pixar cartoons its humanoid characters to rave reviews.

Note also that the technologically advanced and photo-realisting "The Polar Express" just creeped everybody out.

2.  This is a practical point:  You can't hand-cartoon photo realism.  I've seen all the posts about, wouldn't it be great if Monkey 3 had looked like the covers of Monkey 1, Monkey 2, or the Mancomb Seepgood screens of Monkey 1.

Sure, that would be cool.  But the game would never be completed and if it were (and it wouldn't) it would come on 12 DVD's.  Can't be done by hand...too much detail.  It's even a lot of detail for 3D.  Can you imagine trying to keep track of all the points on LeChuck's beard at 12 fps?  (That's the lowest acceptable frame-rate for professional quality animation.)

3.  If you're trying to make it look photo-real (even if the technology exists) why not use real actors?  It's cheaper and it looks more like real people.  When deciding whether to animate, you must first ask yourself if you should.

You should animate only when it can't be done (or is dangerous) in real life.

4.  By iconifying a character, it makes the player better able to project himself into that character.  Make the character too recognizable and realistic and the player can't place himself into that character.

Please note that Guybrush has two characters.  There's the lovably inept cutscene character.  In the interactive portion, Guybrush has no character.  He'll say whatever you want him to say.  Brave, craven, sarcastic, random, you decide and that is what makes him so much more fun than plainly drawn Manga characters.

Actually, oddly enough, this ties into this thread.  When you play a character-based game, you want the character to become you.  Having a recognizable actor with a strong personality gives you less control and becomes less fun.

This is a big reason acting isn't all that important to video game sales.

5.  It's more difficult to do something fun and stylized in photo-realism.  by its definition, photo-realism doesn't have cool curvy clouds, or arcing, rounded buildings.

This is why our industry is stuck with so many damn gray walled dungeouns, gray walled space-stations and wood-beamed medeivel cottages.

Dull...dull...dull...

There are many more reasons to avoid photo-realism.  But I'll finish it up with this.  It has a lack of charm and we wanted the art in Curse of Monkey Island to be charming.

Posted by jmackley on Jun 5, 2005 twenty five to ten am

6.  Oh, I left off another important practical one.

Normally drawn faces don't read on small screens or small characters.  It's very difficult to convey emotions.  

This is why the all good animators, Wester, Japanese, etc. emphasizes and exaggerate the human face (huge eys, etc.)

Though the final styles can be quite dissimilar, they are not photo-realistic.

Posted by jmackley on Jun 5, 2005 five to ten am

Oh, and "Revenge of the Sith" was really bad.

Posted by s_nodice on Jun 6, 2005 ten to two pm

Amen.

Posted by Episkopos Stephanus on Jun 5, 2005 quarter past ten am

The deformed cartoonishness of the characters was the first thing that annoyed me about CMI when I saw it in a magazine ad. When I actually played the game, I quickly got used to it, though I still think it wasn't quite in the spirit of the first two games. The characters were much more deformed than necessary.

Posted by Someone on Jun 5, 2005 ten past one pm

Photo Realism eh?
Are you going to be comfortable with shooting characters that look like real people?
The search for graphics looks likes it's over. The search for originlaity isn't going to start.

Posted by Adewade on Jun 6, 2005 half past two am

The search for originality is ultimately a faulty venture. It's a bad idea to go into any project with the idea of 'I just need to make this different.' Take Katamari Damacy, for example. From what I saw of his presentation at GDC (via internet-video), the brainchild behind that particular innovative, original venture just thought it would be fun to play. He wasn't seeking to make something nobody had ever seen before, just something that he wanted to play. I don't think story-based games are much different, no less than writing stories in any other venture.

The problem I find in today's games is a matter of cohesive style. Realistic graphics ruin the style of the game if nothing else is kept to a similar degree. The characters should reflect the artistry should reflect the storyline should reflect the freedom/linearity. And the more powerful the processed graphics, the greater the danger that the visual will become out of whack with the rest (physics, maturity-in-story, etc.).

Probably why I always gravitate towards the bright and cartoony in videogames, myself.

Posted by Anakin on Jun 6, 2005 five to eight am

I don't have anything against the cartoon style and i didn't mean,that the qualitiy should be as good as on the old covers.
I simply don't like the totally different shape of guybrushs face,the long nose,he never had before and his thin,clumsy lookin body....
all that could have been different with the same charming graphicstyle,wich i appreciated.
I also enjoyed it,but that wasn't guybrush anymore....it felt like a movie sequel,where the main character is played by another actor....
Wally looked like wally,Elaine and Le Chuck were alright,which shows,that the characters can stay recognizable by converting them into cartoonstyle...
I think the most important thing,that gyubrush always had a round face and a small nose.Ok he could have lost weight on his journey,but the shape of his skull should stay the same.....
In the scene,when he gets pushed under deck by le chucks pirates and hast this frightened,surprised face expression,he reminds of the old days a little bit....I don' think that would have been that difficult.

Posted by jmackley on Jun 6, 2005 half past eight am

I think it's a testament to the writing of Ron, Tim and Dave that so much personality is attributed to a character perhaps 25 (rectangular) pixels high.

I'm not going to argue your personal taste, but at least be intellectually honest.

Posted by Edmundo on Jun 6, 2005 five past nine am

I think this site needs a Bitch about Discuss Monkey Island section...

Posted by Kingzjester on Jun 6, 2005 ten to ten am

Or simply a filter that doesn't add comments with monkeys and islands in them.

Posted by jmackley on Jun 6, 2005 five past ten am

My apologies for responding to the off topic post.

Posted by Edmundo on Jun 6, 2005 five to nine pm

No need to say sorry! It was actually a pretty interesting reply...

Posted by Anakin on Jun 7, 2005 twenty to eleven am

Don't you wanna understand me?
I don't say the graphics were and i also liked the 25 pixel characters....
And also in the old days,Largo looked different from guybrush and guybrush was recognizable in both games,instead of looking like larry laffer in MI2.
I agree,that there has to be space for identification and fantasy,that has nothing to do with what i said.

Posted by Anakin on Jun 7, 2005 quarter to eleven am

I dont say,the graphics were bad.....i wanted to say

Posted by Anakin on Jun 7, 2005 five to eleven am

And your reply WAS interesting,but no answer to my posting.
I didn't argue HOW GOOD the game looked,but HOW the main character was designed.
I even agree with your argumentation.....
Maybe it even was too recognizable,but lookin different......
Not common enough,thats it...guybrush always looked common..

And a common face with space for identification doesnt look like guybrush in CMI......maybe Link In Wind Waker looks more like that..........

Ok,now I'll stop bothering you.All i wanted was a short answer by Ron and what he would have made out of exactly the same graphic quality,you used

Posted by dustin on Jun 8, 2005 twenty five to one am

while we are off topic, i might as well post this...

Ron, I really respect your opinion and was hoping you'd give my short little flash movie a look and let me know what you think. I hope this doesn't come off as shameless self-promotion and spamming, but regardless, here is the address:

http://newgrounds.com/portal/view/239157

Posted by spaceship789 on Jun 8, 2005 five to five am

ron says "I also must say I am very disappointed in Wil Wheaton's quote in the article I linked to.  I have always found him to be very intelligent and insightful, but his remarks seemed very naive."

I found Wil's comments to be inoffensive: one fact about how actors can't live off game earnings, and another fair opinion about strikes.

But it was Babakitis' comments that I found to be naive... or either he was just having a joke:

"When gamers think that actors are out of line for asking points, then you are also preventing programmers, writers, level artists and everyone else from asking for participation," Babakitis told Wired News. "When actors get points, then perhaps programmers, artists and writers might not be that far behind -- and game production might suddenly become competitive internationally again."

Posted by Sergio on Jun 11, 2005 quarter to eight am

Just because you are unable to find regular work throughout the year doesn't mean you deserve to earn more. Unless you're voice actor extraordinaire who can actually make a living off voice acting alone, voice acting should only supplement your income. This argument is a slap in the face of developers simply because they put in extra hours to make a game a success.

Posted by spaceship789 on Jun 13, 2005 midnight

Absolutely!

but he doesn't say that, at least not in the two quotes of his that are in the article.

just to save you looking them up again:
"Yeah -- $275 an hour would be a huge amount if actors did that kind of work several times a week," said Wheaton, "but the average, working-class actor is lucky to get four of those jobs a year."

Re: striking
"It's unpleasant, but it's a necessary negotiating tool," Wheaton told Wired News.

Posted by Sergio on Jun 14, 2005 quarter to noon

Read between the lines.

$275/hr is a lot of money, regardless if you can or can't find that kind of work several tims a week, or just four times a year.

From his blog:
"But the thing is, most voice actors are lucky to work three or four of these jobs a year, so when the year is up, most of us are looking at under 3,000 dollars earned from games that gross several million."

I am going to guess he meant net, since grossing several million really isn't all that great. But semantics aside, should we care how many of these jobs they may find in a year when factoring in how much they should be paid? Should we increase their hourly rate so that their three or four jobs a year nets them something that can sustain them, maybe $12000? Is $500/hr enough if they only get it a few times a year, or perhaps $1000/hr?

Posted by spaceship789 on Jun 14, 2005 twenty five to midnight

Absolutely, you are spot as to mr wheatons opinions. But I am referring to a quote in the article, as was ron in his original piece:

"I also must say I am very disappointed in Wil Wheaton's quote in the article I linked to"

Posted by Dalty Smilth on Jun 8, 2005 ten past eleven pm

I'm kind of mystified by the concept of unions.  It seems like most of them go on long past the point where they actually are useful and helpful and become nuissances.  Especially actor's unions.  If you're in an actor's union, for the most part you can't work on non union-approved projects.  If you're a non-union actor, you can't work on a union-approved project.  You can't become a member of the union unless you have experience in the part of the industry you want to get into.  You can't get experience because all the projects that are almost guaranteed to be successes are union-approved (and you can't work on a union-approved project since you're not a part of the union), and all the other projects are as likely to be huge steaming piles of crap as they are to actually be seen by people.  Of course, maybe I'm oversimplifying.  Or overcomplicating.  Whatever it is I'm doing, it is probable that I am doing it to an amount that is more than the situation warrents.

Posted by jmackley on Jun 9, 2005 five past seven am

BREAKING NEWS:
Voice actors reached a deal with the studios yesterday.  The companies will increase the rate for voice over actors to $750 from $556 per four-hour session by 2008.

There will be an immediate 25% increase to $659 and includes a 7.5% increase in contributions to  the union benefits plan.

But no royalties.

Posted by Anakin on Jun 9, 2005 quarter to nine am

One very last question to you,jonathan:
Don't you think the characters have to look average,to let the players place themselves into them?
I agree,that a low detail-comic style helps with that and also like it,but
you can even identify yourself with real actors,if they look average.
Guybrush always looked like the prototype of all absolute average guys(even in photorealism) and if you only would have been inspired a little by the old covers,when creating a comicstyle Guybrush (im sayin again:nothing against cartoon style),he would have looked differently from what he does and more average.
And I think all the writers aff the postings,you mentioned would have been very happy and didn't complain about the graphicstyle in general.
Nobody expects photorealism.

Posted by DanteNeverDies on Jun 11, 2005 quarter to two am

I think you're lacking of respect,but I agree with you,that all the complaints were not about the CMI art style,but about the looks of Guybrush

Posted by Sergio on Jun 11, 2005 quarter to eight am

Will Wheaton has an argument on hie blog. Unfortunately, he doesn't make any good convincing points, unless you happen to be a voice actor or a die-hard Wil Wheaton fan.

http://www.wilwheaton.net/mt/archives/003293.php

Posted by jmackley on Jun 11, 2005 quarter past noon

I don't know.  The "Just because you guys are exploited, doesn't mean we should be exploited" is a pretty good argument.

However, I think Mr. Weaton may not understand that many developers (myself include) don't think they add value in such a way that they deserve any back-end compensation.

Posted by jmackley on Jun 11, 2005 ten past one pm

Actually, I'd like to clarify the last point I made.  In some cases, back-end compensation makes sense.  For instance, in the case of a game where voice acting is paramount and makes a measurable difference in the sale of a game.

For instance, Dominic Armato in the Monkey Island games.  He spent weeks working on the project and as the games were story and character driven, he made a big difference.  He was also the only actor on those projects that in my opinion might have an affect on sales.

But it's the exception (particularly with the demise of adventure games) rather than the rule.

If a voice-actor does 4 hours of work for essentially verbal sound-effects or does only cut-scene work, I think not.

Posted by Sergio on Jun 11, 2005 ten past five pm

I agree that this is an exception to the rule.

As I commented to Wil's post:

"Some of the games I've enjoyed over the years have had either limited to no voice acting what so ever, or bad voice acting. So voice acting is not as essential as you may think. When there is good voice acting it's a bonus, but it doesn't necessarily equate to making a game what it is. Sorry to say it, but to me and a few others, the voice acting is dispensable. If it has the potential of driving up the price of some games, I can do without."

However, I'll play along and say I do need voice acting in my games. Then I would agree that there are voice talents out there that can command the big money. Sam Fisher just wouldn't be same without Michael Ironside. Having David Duchovny who was in a TV show that had alien conspiracies in your alien conspiracy game is a big selling point, so it would be important to the game. A big name actor reprising his role in a movie based game is key, and the actor could easily demand more money. When random voice actor X demands more money claiming that he deserves it, we just have to ask, prove it. And so far, they haven't. Using the few exceptions to the rule as the rule just doesn't work."

Posted by Sergio on Jun 11, 2005 ten past five pm

I don't even think he made any valid points to claim that voice over actors are exploited. There is no comparison between the "exploitation" of voice over actors and  that of the developers. Not receiving more than your worth is not exploitation. Not receiving overtime pay for 80 hour work weeks is exploitation.

All he had to offer was, it's hard work, we deserver more money. No doubt it's hard work, but not as hard as other jobs in a development studio. If that were the case, then developers should be paid $100s of dollars an hour also, but then it would cost too much to develop games, so if any other game is made, they'll have to cut corners, starting with voice actors. Unless you're job involves life and death situations, saying it's hard is no excuse.

Then he follows up with the gem that voice actors deserve more money because they are lucky if they are able to find 3 or 4 of these jobs in a year. It seems then that there are fewer voice acting jobs available for the number of professional voice over actors out there. If this were simple supply and demand, then there's an over supply without an equal amount of demand, so shouldn't their wages be getting lower? Or maybe it's time to get a second job?

I think the commentor canuckotter on that thread made a decent argument regarding actors asking for more than they're worth.

Posted by Simo on Jun 12, 2005 half past four am

Posted by Anakin on Jun 12, 2005 quarter to ten am

No,I do respect the monkey sequels.....

Posted by Anakin on Jun 12, 2005 ten to ten am

And,jmackley....its very weak of you that you cant explain,why there isnt any similarity between the old and the new guybrush.......
despite all art styles

Posted by jmackley on Jun 12, 2005 twenty five to one pm

Son, this is not my blog.  Nor is it yours.  We were both off topic.

Posted by extagen no on Jun 30, 2005 twenty five to three pm

Well...you bring up the very problem with unions in general. Many public school teachers are now getting in excess of 90K per year. Does a teacher really need a master's degree to teach second grade? Is this fair that they get paid this much while the poor elderly have to sell their home because they can no longer afford the property taxes?

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 30, 2005 quarter to three pm

Actually, I think teachers should be paid more. It's shame that Hollywood actors get paid more to entertain kids than teachers do to educate them.

Pay them $250K and have really high standards and we'll get a lot out of that down the road.

"If you think education is expensive try ignorance"


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