Grumpy Gamer Netflix Streaming Sucks

Netflix Streaming Sucks

Jun 9, 2011 five past five pm

Once again, I tweeted something that some people are not understanding, due to no fault of theirs, it's just hard to get complex ideas out in 140 characters, so it warrants a full blog post.

Bottom line: Netflix streaming sucks and here's why.

I have tried this on several devices, so I know it's not the device. I've streamed on my 360, my iPad, my Apple TV and directly on my TV (which has a LAN port and if that doesn't scare the crap of TV networks, nothing will) and I get the same crappy results.

I'll start watching the movie (in HD) and everything is more-or-less OK. The movies are compressed more than I'm used to on iTunes, as I can see artifacts, but it's not so bad that it's a deal breaker.

It should also be noted, that I am extremely picky when it comes to visual quality. I love watching movies and I relish a nice crisp clean picture. I rent a lot of movies on my Apple TV via iTunes and despite it being 720p, they are gorgeous on a big HD TV.

OK, so I start watching the Netflix movie and about 10 or 15 minutes into the movie...bam..I'm watching a crappy YouTube video. Blocky compression, artifacts everywhere and I want to gouge my eyes out. I give it 10 or 15 more minutes and it goes back to HDish quality and 15 or so minutes later, I'm back to crappy quality and out comes the eye-fork.

People keep saying "it's your internet connection" but i call bullshit on that (but in a nice non-sweary way).

When I rent a movie on my Apple TV via iTunes, I press the button that says "Yes, I really want to rent this" and a message pops up that says "Your movie will be ready to watch in a few moments" and 30 seconds later I start watching and the quality is absolutely perfect and I watch the entire movie and it never pauses or downgrades.

Why? Because the Apple TV/iTunes buffers enough of the movie locally based on my Internet connection speed to allow me to watch it.

Why doesn't Netflix do this? It's not rocket science here. Will people really get upset when they have to wait 30 seconds before watching their movie? If Netflix is worried about that, then have an option for waiting and let the antsy-pants people start watching immediately. Keep buffering while it sits on some "Press Play to Watch" screen for the people that care about quality.

Now, I've brought this up with some of my friends, and inevitably they say "It doesn't do that for me", then I describe the problem in more detail and they say "Oh that, yeah, I do see that but it doesn't bother me". Maybe this doesn't happen to other people or maybe it's just that other people's definition of quality isn't as stringent as mine.

So why does Netflix streaming do this? I have a couple of theories that don't involve Netflix having crappy programmers.

One is that the movie studios won't let them buffer more than X seconds. Part of me thinks this can't be true, but then another part of me thinks that movie studios really are that stupid (I read a great quote a while back that said "If big media companies want to survive, they should fire everyone over thirty).

The other theory is that the internet bandwidth issues are not on my end, but on Netflix's end. They are the ones that can't handle the output, so there is no way for them to know how much to pre-buffer. I don't think this is true, because it doesn't matter when I watch, I consistently see this behavior. Also, when the quality degrades, I press pause for a while to see if that will clear it up and it never does, so I suspect there isn't much (if any) pre-buffering going on.

Of course, the end result of all this is that I don't watch movies on Netflix, which is too bad because there is a lot of stuff I'd love to watch without paying $3.99 to rent it on iTunes. But as it stands now, the $3.99 is worth the quality. I just wish Netflix tried harder and actually cared about quality, or would at least come clean with why this is happening.

I bet iTunes looks so good because Steve Jobs cares about quality and probably uses iTunes and if he saw a badly compressed movie on iTunes he's just go punch someone. I wish I could punch someone at Netflix.

*Threat of violence against someone at Netflix was used solely as a literary device not as an actual threat.

Other people's comments:

They should really take a look at the way OnLive is handling their streaming. 720p and consistently flawless. And with 5.1 surround to boot.

I don't know, man. I'm sorry you're having trouble because it runs like a champ for me. 52" tv, running off PS3 or Xbox via WiFi to my Cable Modem at 10Mbps. Super rarely, like a few days in the last year, and during internet 'prime-time' in my neighborhood, have I had to deal with the switch to SD. Seemed like it went away after an hour or so those times.

Who's your ISP? Some are known to throttle netflix.

I shouldn't matter one bit if they just buffered correctly. That's kind of my whole point. When they can't stream in HD anymore, they should stop and let it catch up, or give me the option of doing that.

No amount of buffering, short of downloading the entire thing, can compensate for having an average bandwidth that is less than the stream's average bitrate.

I noticed this the last week or so using UVerse. I believe they are shaping my internet traffic. Switching over to 3G I had higher quality video. UVerse, for me, has been reliably fast and I had not had these problems, which I noticed with Comcast nearly daily. This just started like 2 weeks ago for me.

Traffic shaping is a very interesting theory and might be correct. I read that Netflix accounts for a huge portion of internet traffic in the evenings with porn taking over in the later in the night (I made that up about porn, but tell me it isn't true).

Even with shaping, I would think this could be solved by smart pre-buffering.

I'm pretty sure this is the answer. At least Comcast is doing the stupid traffic-shaping trick where they let the first few MB of a transfer go fast, then throttle it down for the rest of the transfer. Could be that the initial buffering determination thing gets to see a fast connection, thinks it's many MBit/s faster and then the real movie watching experience is awful.

I watched Netflix streams on a comcast line - they used to become unwatchable regularly (bad quality, then connection drops). After a while I switched to an independent ISP (who are slightly cheaper at the same bandwidth), and now stuff actually plays and stays at the same, high quality consistently.

This makes for a good conspiracy theory, but doesn't actually hold water in real life. If Comcast were mucking with streams on a bandwidth basis, it would be very evident in Netflix's traffic report.

What's much more likely to be occurring is that in your area the Netflix server that's colocated at/near your smaller ISP is not nearly as overloaded.

I wish it was a conspiracy theory. It's what comcast state in the fine print on their home page, though: "PowerBoost provides bursts of download and upload speed for the first 10 MB and 5 MB of a file, respectively. "

(Not linking the page itself due to the "no commercial sites" warning, just click on the "Internet" option in their "Products" menu for the source of that quote.)

Which would explain why your experience is what happens to everyone else on Comcast viewing HD streams and what you're describing doesn't happen on other ISPs as well.

Since both of those things aren't true, we can move on from what you think is true but itsn't, and talk about things that might actually be causing your problem.

I know Hulu admits that they can only pre-buffer a certain amount of video, for licensing reasons, but I believe it's more like a few minutes than some-odd seconds. It's conceivable, though, that the longer the buffer time, the more complicated/expensive the licensing gets, so Netflix went with the shortest possible time. Which is pretty ridiculous, but media licensing always is. I do know that licensing is always so specific that if they made the contracts based on one standard about buffering, it would likely be a huge pain to go and change it.

I used to have a terrible time with streaming quality on my old internet connection, so I know exactly what you're talking about, but it almost never happens on my new connection. I wonder if Netflix assumes that the people with worse connections just don't care as much about video quality as the people with fast connections. Or maybe they just assume that everyone will have a faster connection eventually, so best put the research into software under that assumption.

It does seem like the "average person" demographic would probably prefer a temporary quality drop rather than periodic pauses.

It's a gross workaround, but you can hit pause as soon as the video starts, go do something for a few minutes, and come back with a nice full buffer. I don't think NetFlix limits how much you can prebuffer. I believe the darker area in the progress bar is the amount buffered (hitting the end seems to correlate to when NetFlix announces that it needs to buffer), and if you wait long enough it will go all the way to the end.

Of course, no matter what you do, god-forbid you should want to rewind a few seconds. Is going back to repeat something so rare that they can't keep a 30 or 60 second buffer of the past? Oops, rebuffering. Grrrrr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix#Streaming

If the wikipede is to be believed, the fluctuation is part of a licensing agreement. A "We Hate Our Customers So, So Much" licensing agreement.

I think the non-buffering may be due to Netflix not wanting to require that supported devices have significant amounts of onboard storage. Since they want to get their service on as many devices as possible this seems like it'd be a likely corner to get cut.

no amount of "smart" or "buffering" can help netflix if comcast is fucking with them on purpose -- big disruptor / competitor (itunes is not that direct of a competition since it costs more, plus not a monthly fee).

Your idea of how Netflix works is wrong, but you don't seem to really care about that so I'll let it go. You actually can force it to buffer only the highest quality stream, but only on the PC.

Try it out on your computer and see if you get the same result, shift+ left click on the movie (I assume it's the same on the mac) and select stream manager. then select only the highest bitrate instead of auto.

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20110525

I had Netflix back when they first started offering streaming. Hardly ever used it except when I didn't have a disk in my mailbox. I'm thinking about re-upping my subscription (rather than torrenting everything) - glad to know streaming still sucks.

I've been using Netflix streaming through my TiVO, and never had a problem. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe my internet connection is just Netflix friendly (Comcast Cable...go figure), or maybe TiVo does something differently, but I can testify that it works on at least one device for one person in North America.

You know this exact issue is on the "free" (really not free, owned by Bill Gates) Silverlight player used in famous Feynman lectures. Couldn't watch them because of this.

But I suspect the programmers are just lazy. Root of all evil in programming is laziness, since creating a somewhat hidden option for switching buffering seconds would not hurt marketing team.

What SUCKS, is that all you NetFlix waffles and your usage have introduced noticeable latency into games I play online, games like DOTA.

I'm pretty sure it's NetFlix, because even my mums is on it now and I've read that its usage in general has increased this past year and in the same time period my latency has gotten worse.

Dammmmeeeet!  Why can't you guys just rent/buy Blueberry(Bluray) movies like ME, this would free up more bandwidth for my gaming!

If you care about quality Ron, Blueberry is the best choice... Who cares about the convenience of renting something and watching it when you want.  You can even order them on Amazon. :)

And on this subject of streaming.  I used my BlackBerry Playbook to stream the online Flash videos of WB's Supernatural season finale to my Plasma set via HDMI and never once did it block up like you described and the quality was about on par with On Demand. I'm just throwing this out there, because I wanted the world to know that my PlayBook is the best tablet I own -- I also own a DOUCHE-pad. :)

++++

AND completely off topic, because you've been a Twittering mofo this past year and stopped posting cool things like this NetFlix rant.  At one time I owned all of the classic Lucas games -- I still have the original discs, but after a sell of my PC to a friend in the nineties, which included all my precious Lucas Art Games, he threw out the boxes and didn't let me know. :(

BUT, there's light at the end of the tunnel and it's called Amazon. I'm now the happy owner once again of a complete Loom, Secret of Monkey Island, and Monkey Island 2. :)  I love BOXES and their content, especially from decades past when they included more than something lame like a DLC code for a new garment.

If there were ever a retail versions of Death Spank, or toys, or anything, I'd buy them in an instance like the crazed fan that I am.

Bleh!

I had just about the exact same problem, except more frequently. It only manifested with Netflix, not other video services. I called Netflix support, who claimed my bandwidth was dropping midstream (clear sign of throttling/shaping) so I called my ISP (AT&T UVerse). I got the runaround from them at first, but after several technician visits to my place and a very long, very recorded conversation with a 2nd or 3rd level supervisor, they comp'd me the next tier of bandwidth and the problem suddenly disappeared. My guess? I was a squeeky enough wheel that that turned off (or at least relaxed the throttling on my internet access.

Ron: YOU SUCK! Ha, ha... Just kiddin'. Go to Japan where transfer rates are +20 GB/sec. Wait... I wouldn't go there...

First it is Gb as in gigabit, not gigabyte. Second I live in brazil and I consider myself lucky to be able to stream youtube at 360p, so be glad you can actually watch stuff. I have to go to the video store and get those antiquated dvds.

There is one solution - Download from Piratebay and stop pay for shit.

FacebookFan likes this.

I've always wondered if for Comcast people's troubles in this regard wasn't some application of PowerBoost or whatever it is they call it where they give you fast speeds for a bit and then eventually slow things back down if it goes longer than a particular amount of data.

Sorry I'm so slow getting to this, but I just looked it up: Netflix also owns a majority holding in Eye-Fork, Inc. Seems that they make money on both sides.

The reference to stock ownership was used solely as attempted comedic relief and should not be used for stock market guidance.

Change to Blu Ray, Ron.
Greetings from Spain.

And get another way to pay for shit.

Buy content not a disk.

Pay to Creator not to Distributor.

I know this has nothing to do with anything, but I just found your site looking for other game blogs to read. I wanted to post on your latest article because I don't know if you check comments from older ones. Anyway, I was having a good day, checking blogs and whatnot, but then noticed you're grumpy. So I decided to maybe brighten your day or fuel your grumpiness. Either way is fine I guess, because I either did a good deed or gave you something to make a funny post about.

http://www.gamergaia.com/home/gaming-news/2-news/909-all-this-cod-is-a-tad-fishy-.html

Short version. It IS your ISP.

Before switching ISPs at my house, Netflix was iffy on the fist show and crap for all after (throttling after X use).

Switched ISPs (same infrastructure/devices) and we now have no issues.

Went from 'upgraded' wireless plan to 'basic' fiber plan.

With all due respect, it's not my ISP.  It's netflix's fault because they don't buffer enough.  If it was my ISP's fault, then streaming movies on my Apple TV at a much higher quality would also have problems, but they don't.  They are 100% perfect.  Over hundreds of hours of watching streaming on my Apple TV, only once did a movie stop in the middle and say it needed to buffer more.  30 seconds later it started.  Once.

Yes, Netflix might work fine with ISP's that are super super fast, but Netfilx (like the Apple TV) should buffer around this problem.  I think it's borderline false advertising for Netfix to say it has streaming HD movies when they can't streaming HD for the vast majority of users.  Just buffer longer and this problem is solved.

The bottom line is that Netflix doesn't care about the quality of the experience as much as Apple does.  They just care that their marketing says "Streaming HD movies".  Now, I hate a lot of things about Apple (as you can read on this very blog), but the one thing I will give them is that they care about quality and don't setting for anything less than the best.

You act like buffering is some magic wand that solves all delivery problems. Buffering only smooths out variations in rates of delivery. But if the data feed speed averages only 80% of the playback speed, then no amount of yelling "more buffering" will magically make data arrive faster to match playback speed.

I'm on AT&T DSL and have no problem with it, sometimes my girlfriend and I are watching two different streams at the same time with no problem. Counter-example blows the Netflix as the cause argument. QED.

Yes thats it. Streaming in Netflix is shit and by solving this problem we probably get new MI. We should write petition.

Well, wrong. Buffering does solve all issues, it just has to be a large enough buffer. If you pre-buffer, say, 100% of the video, there will be no drops no matter the connection speed.

"It's netflix's fault because they don't buffer enough. If it was my ISP's fault, then streaming movies on my Apple TV at a much higher quality would also have problems, but they don't."

Well, as others have pointed out, your ISP could be specifically throttling connections to Netflix, say, because they want to advertise a special Netflix offer. They could do it in a way that would make it impossible for Netflix to predict how much they had to pre-buffer. Or, the ISP even has a deal with Netflix not to try to check that correctly.

Technology is shit. Go to the theatre, it has got almost infinite resolution.

I've seen several people mention traffic shaping as a possible part of the problem, but it could also just as easily be bufferbloat (Summary, in an effort to avoid packet loss we have removed the ability to detect congestion in the network and slowdown automatically, thus creating even worse packet loss and high latency)

Try to press Ctrl+Shift+Alt+S for Stream bit rate and manual rate selection
http://markwarren.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/netflix-movie-player-keyboard-shortcuts/

I always select the highest bit rate. And it works fine with my german T-Online DSL line (50Mbit) :)

I think this graph is quite illustrative of strong throughput differences between high-speed internet providers.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gC6nMAI6mu8/TUHG6jsQq-I/AAAAAAAAADE/Bwe1fkAUxzA/s1600/isp_usa.png

http://techblog.netflix.com/2011/01/netflix-performance-on-top-isp-networks.html

This is still not conclusive evidence of data throttling of Netflix specifically since we do not know the general average throughput of each provider.

Ron, which one is yours ? =)

Amen to that, Netflix sucks

My netflix streaming looks pretty bad on my PC (looks like straight up compression artifacts), but very good on my ipad2.

Luckily i'm not a visual quality nut so I am only occasionally bothered by the PC playback.

Hey! Pay attention! Except where otherwise noted, this site is licensed under a Creative Commons License.

Netflix Streaming Sucks

Other people's comments:

Posted by Kerry on Jun 9, 2011 twenty five to seven pm

Posted by Bobby A on Jun 9, 2011 twenty to seven pm

Posted by Rob on Jun 9, 2011 quarter to seven pm

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 9, 2011 quarter to seven pm

Posted by Spudd86 on Jul 3, 2011 quarter past nine pm

Posted by Michael N on Jun 9, 2011 seven pm

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 9, 2011 five past seven pm

Posted by Andreas Fuchs on Jun 9, 2011 half past eleven pm

Posted by Richard Lawler on Jun 10, 2011 quarter to six am

Posted by Andreas Fuchs on Jun 10, 2011 quarter past eight am

Posted by Richard Lawler on Jun 11, 2011 twenty past two pm

Posted by LuigiHann on Jun 9, 2011 quarter to eight pm

Posted by Alan De Smet on Jun 9, 2011 half past eight pm

Posted by JP on Jun 9, 2011 nine pm

Posted by JSW on Jun 9, 2011 nine pm

Posted by tom jones on Jun 9, 2011 ten to midnight

Posted by Richard Lawler on Jun 10, 2011 quarter to six am

Posted by Novack on Jun 10, 2011 quarter to seven am

Posted by David Hughes on Jun 10, 2011 five to nine am

Posted by Ken on Jun 10, 2011 ten to ten am

Posted by Ciantic on Jun 10, 2011 twenty to eleven am

Posted by Chris on Jun 10, 2011 half past noon

Posted by Amozarte on Jun 10, 2011 ten to three pm

Posted by iSuck on Jun 11, 2011 twenty five to eleven am

Posted by Hoffmann on Jun 11, 2011 twenty five to eleven pm

Posted by eman on Jun 13, 2011 five am

Posted by FacebookFan on Jun 13, 2011 ten to eleven am

Posted by J on Jun 15, 2011 ten to eight pm

Posted by Leonard on Jun 17, 2011 twenty five to seven am

Posted by Herman Toothrot on Jun 18, 2011 ten to five am

Posted by Payforshit on Jun 20, 2011 ten past three am

Posted by GregoryAllen on Jun 21, 2011 four pm

Posted by Drew on Jun 24, 2011 twenty five past three pm

Posted by Ron Gilbert on Jun 24, 2011 twenty five to four pm

Posted by JeramieH on Jun 25, 2011 half past midnight

Posted by Yesthatsit on Jun 30, 2011 ten to four am

Posted by derula on Jul 6, 2011 twenty five to five am

Posted by derula on Jul 6, 2011 twenty to five am

Posted by Moist on Jul 2, 2011 five to five pm

Posted by Spudd86 on Jul 3, 2011 quarter to three pm

Posted by Marcus on Jul 10, 2011 quarter to eight pm

Posted by Emzy on Jul 11, 2011 half past two am

Posted by Zlatko on Jul 16, 2011 twenty five to eight am

Posted by Greg on Jul 18, 2011 half past seven am

Posted by Jeff Fisher on Jul 22, 2011 six pm