Grumpy Gamer Nothing much new...

Nothing much new...

Aug 23, 2005 twenty past eleven pm

...in Grumpyland.

I have been very busy and I have a pile of email that I have not responded to, plus at least one interview that I am (probably) really late in getting done.

If you've emailed me in the last couple of weeks with a official request for the Secret of Monkey Island and promised not to tell anyone and I have not gotten back to you: I will.

Clayton and I were supposed to jet off to Paris this week to meet with a publisher, but had to cancel because I got sick. The trip has been postponed until next month. I was looking forward to some wine and stinky cheese. I love stinky cheese.

I was also going to write a big long "thing" on the Casual Game Conference that I went to...oh...months ago, but never got around to it. I think I was just too depressed. I was hoping that the publishers of causal games would be more willing to take risks, given that the amount of money they are paying is less than the catering budget of a main-stream game. If main-stream games had catering budgets. But all these "new" publishers are looking for is the next Bejeweled. Forget talking about any new business models. They aren't interested. "$19 with a 60 minute try-to-buy and don't talk to me about anything else". Dammit. Then the pushing and shoving would start and someone would call the cops and by this point I'd figure the deal was blown.

I was also amazed that for a business who's primary market is 35 year-old women, there were mostly men on the panels. But I guess that's par-for-the-industry. I was hoping casual games would be different, but it's just a smaller version of it's screwed up drunk older cousin.

I went to a gathering of Bay Area game developers last week (or was it the week before) and got to meet some great people. As always, the talk turned to episodic content. Game people seem to love episodic content. I agree. Maybe someday it will be done right. Lots of hurdles from distribution to gamer mindset (oooooh...especially gamer mindset). I do believe it is the future of strong story based games, but it solves as many problems as it creates.

Been too busy programming and reading to play much.

A couple of loose ends:

1) I'm really annoyed by sites that have RSS feeds that only show the headline with not even a couple of paragraphs from the story. Like this is going to entice me to visit the site like some local news wanna-be scream for attention. Nope. I just move on, not bothering to read the rest of what was sure to be a brilliant life altering story.

2) Why is it that when you buy a bottle of coyote urine, it has to say "Not for Human Consumption"? Seriously. It says this. I'm looking right at it.

Other people's comments:

If this were an adventure game I'm sure I'd buy a bottle of coyote urine and look at it, hoping to read something like that.

But since this is not an adventure game: What the hey does one do with a bottle of coyote urine and why is something like this sold in the first place?

I think this page pretty much explains it: http://www.predatorpee.com/newpredatorpee2003.html
(not that I'd know that)

On the other hand - isn't it cool to be able to buy any kind of urine you desire? :-)
That's supply and demand at work there, I guess :-)

And I absolutely understand why they put "not for human consumption" on the label. Remember the lady who tried to dry her cat in a microwave? She claimed the manual didn't say "warning for the braindead: don't dry your cat in this or it's going to explode (unless you want it to)".

So, speaking of annoying RSS, can you change your RSS feed to be full-text please?
Or add a second feed that is?

I ask on behalf of the (surely) dozen of us who grab RSS feeds and read them offline (commuting to work)... it bites when you get halfway through something really interesting and then.... BAM

...more...

it bites when you get halfway through something really interesting

Clearly you're not talking about this site.

I just bumped the feed up a few weeks ago and once I see what the bandwidth is like, I'll move it to a full feed. There are a lot of people out there that pull the feed several times a minute (it's probably proxy servers).

Strange, cuz it doesn't taste too bad.

well maybe it looks like lemondae or something, urine can be quite confusing to the average american.

Damn, I was hoping you would have come back from the Casual Games Conference with something positive to say.

There is so much potential beyond match 3 games. Given the creative freedom that the space offers I'm surprised at the sheer number of "me too" games. It does seem to be a smaller version of it's screwed up drunk older cousin.

Regarding episodic content, what are your thoughts on Tell Tale Games Bone game? http://www.telltalegames.com/

In the meantime, check out Ferry Halim's stuff. Simple games and beautiful to boot. Guaranteed to make you smile.
http://www.orisinal.com/

"Been too busy programming and reading to play much."

What are you programming ?

Those VCRs can be tricky. ... Oh, I kill me, I really do!

You cheeky chap...

Publisher in Paris? A publisher that is big enough to pay the tickets? You don't have to be sherlock to solve THAT riddle.

But think about it, there are 2 bigger publishers in Paris AFAIK. UbiSoft and Infogrames(Atari).

Just thinking about it I would bet my money on UbiSoft because they tend to be more courageous. They develop from time to time "newer" titles like PoP or Beyond Good and Evil or the anticipated King Kong. Additionaly UbiSoft seems to watch closely the community.
for example:
They hired the Penny Arcade guys to promote some of their games.

Mr. Gilbert, get well soon!

They also made Warrior Within and Splinter Cell 3. Don't get your hopes up, buddy.

A publisher that is big enough to pay the tickets?

Who said they were paying for the tickets?

You don't have to be sherlock to solve THAT riddle.

Well, apparently you do.

What what does being Dr Watson get you?

Oh, perhaps my hopes superimposed my reading abilities.

In my mind all fitted perfectly together. Lucasarts (like they did with Kotor and SWG) searched an outsourced development studio to develop a new MI game. They went to UbiSoft and UbiSoft itself as a result tried to hire the creator itself.

But that was perhaps only in my perfect "to good to be true" dream world.

Okay, dreaming on....

Nah !

There shouldn't have been anything after Monkey Island 2 !!! The bilogy ended in a very elegant way that should have prevented any sequels.

Forget about sequels ! We need new stuff !!!

G.

Forget about sequels ! We need new stuff !!!

I'll second that! Whilst I'd love to play Ron's Monkey Island 3, I really, really can't wait to see what else he's got in mind.

I would have enjoyed a sequel to Full Throttle back in the day, but I'm sure glad Tim Schafer did Grim instead...

I do not think Bruno Bonnell, Infogrames' boss (1M€/year), is interested in such games.

So in France there is an huge community which adore the Lucas Arts' legendary games (Day of the Tentacle, Monkey Island, Grim Fandango...) as you can see: www.freeoldies.com and www.abandonware-france.org.

Moreover Ubisoft was historically the distributor of Lucas Arts, it could be interested on editing and/or publishing such game.
But why not a game editor like Focus Home Interactive? ( www.focus-home.com ) which is growing very quickly and had a big success with Runaway, an adventure game. However Focus is "small".

So many questions...

- Hussard, a desperate houseplayer.

There's also a lot of smaller publishers, that are well in the Adventure Game genre (Focus Home Interactive, Micro Applications), but they are limited to the french part of europe.

Maybe Vivendi also ?

What new business models are you talking about?

What the hell is this world coming to when one of the industry's visionaries has to trapse around peddling his wares like a drunk trying to blag a free bottle of whiskey?! Makes me sick...

d

You are all assuming its a Publisher in Paris/France when it could be any european company that just happens to want to meet in Paris. Dreamcatcher/Adventure Company seems likely in my opinion

Vivendi and Atari do have offices in Paris, but their HQ are in Lyon.

Yeah, but Lyon is a sh*thole.

Lyon rox, you fool !

But Infogrames still sux...

well everything is fine except ea, at least for me

Well, in fairness to the casual game publishers, and as one of those 35+ women who plays games... I really really like the $20 and you can play for an hour or play a demo to see if you like it business model. I've bought a few games this summer that fit that model in fact, more then I've bought of 'standard' games lately. Being able to play a long demo (ie as long as I want, but reduced functionality) or an hour-long demo period both serve to let me get far enough along to decide whether or not it's worth ponying up $20 to continue. And $20 is cheap enough that I often will -- it's the equivalent of 1 hardback book rather then the more-typical 2.5 hardbacks of your $50 games, making it low enough to be an impulse buy for me.

Now, if you meant that all they will look at is match-3 games, I agree there is an issue :p

i first played GTA2 on a magazine CD that had a demo version with time limit. I played with some friends... or one live, or the time limit then next player.

i recall enjoying it for months. then one of them bought the real game. it didn't had a time limit option. we never played that.

gouranga!

Casual Market Games need:

Better aggregation. I will not go through most of these, because they're poorly organized, and they insist on rebranding the same group of games. This is confusing for me, because I generally follow a house's releases, not the publisher's.

Price-point. I will not pay 20 bucks for a casual game. It simply will not happen. Ever.

If you've emailed me in the last couple of weeks with a official request for the Secret of Monkey Island and promised not to tell anyone and I have not gotten back to you: I will.

Now thats just cruel! ;)

Hi there, I miss great games.....
I don't understand why you guys don't make them anymore & sell them yourselves, as a small venue, almost amateur-like, and begin to build a fanbase (or grab back all the fans you had) and afterwards, become more exposed, and then who knows, maybe the next sleeper-hit could be yours! if not then keep it simple, as a small profitable outfit, offering quality to fans.

If you've emailed me in the last couple of weeks with a official request for the Secret of Monkey Island and promised not to tell anyone and I have not gotten back to you: I will.

Is this serious? Is this an open offer? Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease.

Hey Gilbert is there any chance that we can hear something about the fifth Monkey Island? I met this game since the third and my litle brothers are ansious because theres a line on the third game where Guybrush said "My contract expires until the fifth game" it made me laugh too much but since there was a fourth i can't wait until the next monkey, greetings from Mexico and take care

The 5th Monkey Island game switched dev teams half way through and was released earlier this year as "Star Wars: Republic Commando".

Isn't the thing with casual games and Bejeweled clones like the thing with indie games and shoot-em-ups? I'm only slightly exaggerating. I sometimes get the impression indie game development is more about the development, the good-old-days-two-dudes-no-suits feeling, than about the games. But hey, I can't always say I blame them.

Also, mainstream games have catering budgets. Mainstream games even have on-staff cooks - at least, I've cooked for the team during crunch periods. It motivated everyone to get their work done before dinner. Is it a good sign or a bad sign if a company has a crunch food delivery system, with a dedicated budget? Discuss.

crunching is fun.
It ensures the communication of a certain kind of desperate amicability in your product. Just like the best songs are only written at three in the morning. It's all related. And the cosmic dance goes on...

It ensures the communication of a certain kind of desperate amicability in your product. Just like the best songs are only written at three in the morning.

There is some truth to this.

It can be a whole lotta fun doing late night crunches with the team - theres something about being in the office late at night with no phone calls, no visitors and (sometimes) no boss.

I've always figured part of it comes from the fact you don't really have to be there. In my case at least, late night sessions meant you were doing the company a favour - and as a result music tended to get turned up louder, the secretary's rubber-band stocks got raided, and if you felt like doing the occasional lap in an office-chair you got away with it.

People can do some awesome stuff under the pressure of crunch, but it can only last so long. I guess everyone has a different limit, but a good manager doesn't let crunch last for too long (I suppose a good manager doesn't have to). Theres a very fine line between the guys feeling like they've banded together and accomplished something amazing (a very good feeling), and the guys feeling like they're banging their collective heads against the wall.

Hi Ron! I am a spanish boy and I believe you see this... http://www.locoarts.com.ar/NG14.htm

There is an "final fight"-style freewaregame available that's called Beats of Rage.

Okay, nothing noteworthy, but the engine is basically open, and there are a lot of Mods available. One of them is the

Day of the Tentacle Final Fight style game called Return of purple Tentacle

all graphics seem to be ripped :(

And coyote urine is good for what exactly? And why is it bottled? Anyone? :|

For repelling small 'pest' mammals from your yard / garden / whatever. They smell Coyote Urine and assume they're going to get eaten.

You can buy it on Amazon of all places. Or other various Traditional garden centers.

Can anyone imagine working as a predator urine extractor ?

brrrrr !

Oh and: Valve their Steam network seems to be open for smaller, more 'obscure' gaming genres. But I suppose it depends what sort of a publisher you'd like..

Well, as a Brazilian fan of Monkey Island's series (I have bought all games) 1 e 2 when I used to have an Amiga 500 and the 3 and 4 for PC.
I really hope that Monkey Island 5 can be released.

Best Regards,

DonKid.

I wish I had known you were at the Casual Games Conference.  I would have liked to meet you. As an attendee (and lunch sponsor!), I was less than thrilled that almost all the lip-flapping was by publishers and distributors, with very little by developers.  I was also disappointed that nobody was saying anything that I hadn't already learned myself over the past couple of years.

Next year, the conference is being divided into different tracks.  This will help a great deal with people seeking those with the info that they crave.

I didn't get the "Ook ook ook. Three match good." vibe from the developers.  Rather, I confirmed that we're all racking our brains (and MAME, and Apple and Atari and Amiga emulators) to find something fresh for our audience.  We're exploring new art styles and music, and looking for stuff that hasn't been seen in a while, or unusual combinations, or even outright original stuff.

The most depressing thing I learned was that the casual audience doesn't care about originality.  A clone is indistinguishable from a sequel, for the most part.  BUT! The most exciting thing that I learned about the casual audience is that they'll play anything that is accessible and purchase it if it's fun.

I'll admit to some knockoffs.  Anyone who has been gaming for a couple of decades will recognize Sandlot's hits for what they are: updated classics.  But these games have allowed us the breathing room to experiment, and put out some original titles next year.

In fact, I regularly ask my coworkers, "What if we get Ron Gilbert to write for us?"

P.S.  Regarding the observation on the lack of 30something women at the CGC, it was organized by 30-something women!

Yes, I was also disappointed in the lack of talks for/by developers. It was just a bunch of publishers who really came across as not knowing what they were doing.

Different tracks will be nice.

Regarding the observation on the lack of 30something women at the CGC, it was organized by 30-something women!

Then why did they invite a bunch of pasty-white guys to do all the panels?

"The most depressing thing I learned was that the casual audience doesn't care about originality."

It may seem that way, but it's not true. Just look at the success of Katamari Damacy. The casual audience doesn't appear to care about originality because they are so rarely faced with it. Without true originality by which to judge things by, people will take even the most minute differences to mean originality - and frankly, when the difference between an original game and a tried and true game is that small, it doesn't matter to anyone.

As Citizen Kane said, "People will think what I tell them to think". People who make original games tend to forget that they need to sell this idea to people through propaganda. We think marketing is this dirty word, and when it is used to control the design of games, it really is. However, if you want people to play original games, you must first make original games and then sell them to the people. If the casual gamer doesn't think originality is important, it's because nobody has told them it is. That much, we can fix. The lack of true originality in the game industry... well...

It was careless of me to say that the Casual Audience doesn't care about originality. It would be more accurate to say that they don't place any inherent value on originality. Think of it like your friends who find a dish they like at a restaurant with hundreds of menu options, and stick with that dish every time they go out. They may be missing something wonderful, but they're also potentially avoiding something awful.

Familiarity and accessibility goes much farther with a Casual Audience than novelty or innovation, which are what are valued the most by people, like us, who spend a great deal of time playing games, and thus demand more from the experience.

I disagree. I think familiarity and accessibility are just easier to sell. You can say, "hey, liked Grand Theft Auto 3? Well, this is just like it, but with Spider-man or in Los Angeles". However, how do you sell something that is like playing an optical illusion, like Ikaruga? You can't use a comparison sell for that. You have to explain the gameplay, and explaining will lead to people's eyes glazing over and tuning out. Instead, the game sells based purely on Treasure being the developer.

I don't think the casual audience gives two craps about familiarity or originality - if they did, they wouldn't be the casual audience. Every game starts from zero and works from there due to some marketing. They buy what somebody takes the time out to tell them to buy, either through word of mouth, advertising (viral even), sequels to favorite games, or licensed games. All you have to do is take the time to tell them.

(Of course, I'm of the belief that no matter how easy it is to sell something to people, you should have something worthwhile to sell in the first place. Please don't think I'm suggesting that just because you can sell a tax cut to poor people, you should).

Just look at the success of Katamari Damacy

I don't consider KD to be a "Casual Game", not in the context of this conference. Casual Games are all the stuff that is sold on Yahoo Games, etc. KD was sold in stores and appeared on a console machine. KD also had a marketing budget that far exceeded the development budget of all Causal Games.

However, if you want people to play original games, you must first make original games and then sell them to the people.

So true, but the people with the money are unwilling to take these risks and just making an original game and not properly promoting it will result in it's failure, further reinforcing that original games don't sell in the minds of the people with the money.

Is self-funding an option? It seems like waiting for or trying to convince the publishers to fund original casual games is a quixotic cause, at best; yet I don't see many casual game discussions (or even indie game discussions) even mention self-funding as a possible alternative to the traditional publishing model.

I think a lot of Indie games are self-funded through programmers and artist donating their time to build the game. Problem is, that is only half of the "publishing equation". Marketing is the other, and it's expensive. The net is littered with Indie games that are good, but lack any awareness (or even a decent website).

You have a point about KD. I was taking "casual game" to mean something slightly different. KD was originally a senior thesis at a Namco-sponsored game school, and the director was very much a member of the Keep It Simple Stupid school of design. I think of KD as a garage game made for casual gamers that just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

I may also be the only person here that doesn't think selling is that difficult to do. I mean, even though I managed to monumentally screw up my public image due to some unfortunate run ins with powerful parties and sharing my extremist and unpopular political views, I still managed to create a website that drew a decent 17,000 readers each and every day with minimal advertising. If I did it again, knowing what I know now (and not carrying the public baggage), I could easily triple that number without breaking a sweat. If you have a good product, you almost can't not sell it (and believe me, I tried).

You want publishers to take notice, just do that. Create a webcomic or flash animation series that draws a huge crowd - then create a game based on that series. You've got a built in audience, and though it is a franchise license, you created and support the franchise to begin with so you still have creative control. Show a publisher that you've already got 50,000 potential buyers, and if you also sell merchandise like t-shirts, you could use the sales numbers from that to pad the resume or use it to aid funding the development. Think of the comic as a loss leader, indoctrining fans and creating loyal consumers before there's even a product to buy. Hell, worked for GI Joe...

That's exactly what happened with Beyond Good and Evil (and a lot of other games). BGE is a masterpiece, but Ubisoft used all the marketing € (or $) to promote Prince of Persia. Thanks to this unusual promotion, the BGE sales were incredibly low, and although the story in BGE is meant to be a trilogy, and we have already follow-ups for Prince of Persia, the end of BGE is most likely never to leave Mr Ancel's mind...

Hmm, I hadn't considered the marketing portion of the equation...still, what kinds of things do you need marketing to do? I mean, assuming a more-or-less solely online presence, what kinds of things can you do to market your game or studio or portal to an audience? Can any of these be taken on by the developer, or do the resource costs pretty much dictate that only the big publishers can do the marketing?

It seems, if the latter is the case, you're more-or-less stuck with Bejeweled clones...:-(

I think it will be interesting to see how Telltale makes out with Bone. The main problem that I personally have with internet distribution is the fact that I don't have a credit card (with me being a starvin' student™ and all). I don't really know how they did with Telltale Texas Hold'em but given the fact that they're still using the internet distribution it must've done well enough.

As for steam, I like the idea of its potential for distribution but I really have problems with the system itself as well as the way its currently being used. Since this isn't a topic about valve and crammin' their inconvenient/fustrating system down the customer's throat. Let's just say that the pirated version of Half-Life 2 is overall easier to use than the legitimate version.

GrumpyGamer is talkin' bout Casual Games now, so I can't really lurk anymore. Hi, The_Raven. Internet distribution does indeed target people with credit cards, but there's murmurings about phone cards and phone bills as the next way to steal candy from kids. The reason that this expansion to phone charging hasn't really taken place (other than phone companies having truly planetary momentum) is that while folks under 25 are the most vocal consumers, the Casual Audience has more discretionary income, and spends much more on their diversions than collegesomethings and twentysomethings can.

Steam is not the solution for the casual audience, because the Gateway Drug is Half-Life 2, and that's Just Not Casual. The Casual Gamer does their playing and shopping online, not in retail, and not in Steam.

Telltale will have payment options for non-credit card holders.

See...

True enough, it was slightly offtopic I'll admit.

Going on with offtopic, just been on Lucasarts' website.In the Pc section there were only Star Wars Games...These people are really getting crazy, do they really think an Universe, even huge as Star Wars one is, can be stretched that way?It's like doing a skin lift to a 90 year woman, the trick may work for a while, but once you discover the extra tissue behind the neck...you're simply disgusted. STOP THAT...and sell that damn three-headed license to Ron!

The 90-year old woman comment reminded me of that scene from Brazil...Great movie, makes me wish there were more quirky computer games in the same vain.

I always thought the secret of monkey island was the gate to hell or rather that "hell-like place" on it. At least not a giant robot monkey. :[ Gimmie a break. what a piece of poop.

I'm sorry to harp on those games on your site, ron. maybe that makes you look bad. but your games felt like playing through a spielberg movie or something. The other two were re-hash city. Granted they werent total dumpers but I just cant appriciate them. Sorry everyone, I'm sure people bring that up all the time around here.

You know, this reminds me of a time I went to E3. I was still a teenager at the time (snuck in via some non-euclidean geometery), and I shared a van back to the hotel with some guys who worked on Turok. I told them, hey, I had that game! I sold it back and got a better game. For the longest time, it really bothered me why I said that.

I didn't figure it out until I started making products that other people enjoyed and got the exact same responses from others. I had something to prove. It's like calling a gunfighter out. You respect the famous gunfighter, so defeating him actually means something to you. It's a way to elevate yourself to his level (possibly rise above it, even if just for a little while). Even though I understand it now, I still find what I said considerably rude and it haunts me still. There are people out there who deserve all the rudeness they get, but these guys didn't do anything to me. They were just striking up conversation.

I'm not saying that this applies to you. It just sort of reminded me of the perils of being a public figure and why I gave it up. I now live in a cave throwing forks at people. Sharp forks.

*Attention Everbody! This is a thread hijacking don't anybody move*

Questions I've wanted to ask Ron

Ron is Tim Schafer really as funny in person?

Are you semi-retired now or working odds jobs? (Yes, I do know humongous/cavedog and that your looking for funding for you next game)

I know you've mentioned being a mostly C CS student being mostly one myself I was wondering if you have any retrospective advice?

Do you ever get tired of people asking about the secret of monkey island or questions in general?

*You can go about you're business. These are not the droids you're looking for.*

I was trying to do too many things at once, so I apologise for the typos/grammar errors in the above post.

What do you think of KotOR?

Why am I asking a question here?

Who am I?

I don´t like Bioware anymore,since one of the Developers said,this axe-swinging,aggressive Whirlwind Guy from Jade Empire would be psychotic.....

I love you Ron. You chance my life, since i played MI.

Now...why, instead of beeing a grumpy gamers, try to teach us something?(not what you are teaching right now).Like programming,coding,etics on game DEV,etc,etc...Show us you acknowledge.
That will be much interesant that reading you sad.
Maybe we can help you to make MI5 comes to life.

Sorry for my english, im spanish.

Thanks for all those years Rob. Bye.

MYST IS DEAD! CYAN STUDIO DISMANTELED, RESSURECTION OF REAL 'QUESTS' ??? - LONG LIVE POINT N CLICK!

hmm.. grumpygamer.com or frumpygamer.com.. I like frumpy more. Oh, hi ron! :)

(I'm eccentric).

zappa would have told you to remove that label. anyone needing one of those, deserve the consequences.

Hi Ron

Fist I appologize for my poor english...
Well I think we're all waiting for Monkey Island 5 and I wish to have it in my hands one day.

I think that piracy stories became fashionable thanks the movie "Pirates of the Carribean", and so I guess that selling Monkey Island 5 now, or even making a movie based on the game could be a really great success.

I really hope that you'll think about it (Owh sorry for my bad english again, I hope I used the good words to explain myself)

Good continuation !!!! :)

Hey! Pay attention! Except where otherwise noted, this site is licensed under a Creative Commons License.

Nothing much new...

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Posted by Pakkun on Sep 1, 2005 twenty five past two am

Posted by Pakkun on Sep 1, 2005 twenty five to three am

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Posted by Hadubald on Sep 2, 2005 twenty to noon

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Posted by A French student on Aug 16, 2006 five to seven pm